Birdie Pets

NO breeders ads here ?

Question:

Why no bird for sale ? Is the market really as ripe for hand raised birds as it would seem ? I am looking for a blue front amazon and seem to be seeing an absolutely fixed price from everyone (eg. $8-900) and not much availablility. How is the supply-demand out there ? Jim Biology Department Indiana University Bloomington

Response:

: Why no bird for sale ? : Is the market really as ripe for hand raised birds as it would : seem ? I am looking for a blue front amazon and seem to : be seeing an absolutely fixed price from everyone (eg. $8-900) : and not much availablility. : How is the supply-demand out there ? Though the rules for this are rapidly blurring and fading, it has long been considered a breach of the rules of the Internet for commercial posts with the exception of regulated and up-front mentioned areas. The NSF still funds a large portion of the Net, and by that factor commercial posts are supposed to be strictly verboten. Posts of an individual selling something as a one time thing are usually considered OK. Up to now, rec.pets.birds has not been sanctioned, either by the participents or the powers that be on the Net, to be a location for commercial posts. —  Michael Kelly Larsen         cisco Systems, Inc.     PHONE : (415) 688-4684  Development Test Engineer    Menlo Park, CA 94025    LAB   : (415) 688-4471              DREAMTANK: A virtual band for a virtual generation.      Keywords: African Grey Parrots, Amazon Cichlids, Electronic Music,                            ElfQuest, Snowboarding

Response:

> Why no bird for sale ?

Because this newsgroup is for the exchange of information regarding care and training of birds, not some kind of market. — —

Response:

Would like to see notices from breeders of birds available. Especially the harder to find kind…jardine’s parrots, yellow collar macaws, etc.

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>> Why no bird for sale ? > Because this newsgroup is for the exchange of information > regarding care and training of birds, not some kind of market.

Kevin, Although I would agree that commercial advertising on the Internet is a growing problem (eg. alt.current-events.net-abuse), I would hardly consider information here as to what breeders have available turning the group into "some kind of market". It is important to make a distinction between "spamming" and appropriate information that readers desire. I am curious as to the level of interest the group has in seeing availability and price information relevant to hand raised birds. It works quite nicely in rec.pets.herp, where small breeders make occasional announcements. Jim J. Graham Biology and Chemistry Departments Indiana University Bloomington

Response:

Re: Re: NO breeders ads here ?      I’m not a breeder but my copy editor’s daughter has a bird for sale. She works and doesn’t think she is spending enough time with him.  He’s a Half Moon Conure, around three to four years old, tame, talks, w/cage toys and food for $275.00.  She lives here in Vancouver, Washington.  If anyone is interested they can E-mail me and I’ll give them a number to call.                Rhia        Otis — Senegal Parrot,  Sir Duke & King Drake — Zebra Finch Studs

Response:

>Would like to see notices from breeders of birds available. Especially the >harder to find kind…jardine’s parrots, yellow collar macaws, etc.

Why not join the American Federation of Aviculture?  In addition to a terrific monthly mag, the WatchBird, they also send out "FastADs" which is a listing of birds available from breeders.  I would never buy long distance, or from a breeder I couldn’t check out personally (facilities, references, etc.) but lots of people do and FastAds at least gets you to breeders who are AFA members and are more likely to have a clue….I will also suggest to all of you that if you really can’t find the bird you want locally, you should try the ABRC in Loxahatchee, Florida (Avicultural Breeding and Research Center).  They have a great rep, lots of birds, many different species.  Just don’t let anyone sell you an unweaned bird unless you have lots of experience or the breeder is nearby and willing to teach you and continue supervising once you take the bird home.   Ellen from Maryland

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I. Paul) writes:

Thanks, Ellen in Maryland.  Have recently joined AFA and am looking forward to fast ads.  Have also checked with ABRC.  Wonderful books, lots of information, no Jardine’s.  Can you tell me anything about Hauser’s (?) House of Birds.  Amazing place in an old farm house.  I’m curious.   Have been getting some great references from one breeder to another, and have successfully purchased a pair of Jardine’s, sight unseen, from a California breeder.  But I was able to check her references, and I did take the (weaned) chicks straight to my avian vet here to get them health certified.   Am new to both birds, and the net, so I love getting advice. Thanks again, Genny in Virginia

Response:

I think that non-commercial pet owners do, from time to time, offer a bird for sale here and I don’t think most of us would object to an obviously non-commercial post like that.  However, I do believe that anyone selling birds for profit should find another venue for the ads.   Maybe we should have a rec.pets.birds.sale forum? Cheers, Phil the

: > Because this newsgroup is for the exchange of information : > regarding care and training of birds, not some kind of market. : Kevin, : Although I would agree that commercial advertising on the Internet : is a growing problem (eg. alt.current-events.net-abuse), I would : hardly consider information here as to what breeders have available : turning the group into "some kind of market". : It is important to make a distinction between "spamming" and : appropriate information that readers desire. : I am curious as to the level of interest the group has in seeing : availability and price information relevant to hand raised birds. : It works quite nicely in rec.pets.herp, where small breeders make : occasional announcements. : Jim : J. Graham : Biology and Chemistry Departments : Indiana University Bloomington —

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> > Why no bird for sale ? > Because this newsgroup is for the exchange of information > regarding care and training of birds, not some kind of market. > — > —

Seems rather silly to me.  No ads.  Don’t you realize without the ability to sell birds, breeders won’t breed and your beloved hobby will cease to exhist?  That is, if the environmental animal rights wackos don’t SHAME us into Setting the Birdies Free first. I live in a housing development in Houston TX.  I started with one pet Amazon and within a couple years had 23 breeds of parrots.  Realizing what I wanted was more contact and loving relationship (why can’t a bird be more like a cat?) I decided to set up a pair of Yellowheads for breeding. In the last four years, from one pair of Double Yellow head amazons and one pair of Greenwing macaws, I have had 19 DYH and 25 greenwing babies. Try that in a diminishing rainforest! I have spent thousands on my birds.  I truly love them as pets and friends first BUT I DO need to find homes for the babies.  I realize the most people don’t want to ship a baby.  I certainly do not.  But a national forum such as this help s everyone to see how small the supply is and what the value of birds are.     As far as the AFA and their quick ads are concerned, I have found them ineffective. The beauty of a newserver is that if you don’t want to read a FOR SALE ad, you mark it read and skip it. What POSSIBLE harm could ads do?

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:  Don’t you realize without the ability to sell birds, breeders won’t breed : and your beloved hobby will cease to exhist?  That is, if the : environmental animal rights wackos don’t SHAME us into Setting the Birdies : Free first. : I live in a housing development in Houston TX.  I started with one pet : Amazon and within a couple years had 23 breeds of parrots.  Realizing what : I wanted was more contact and loving relationship (why can’t a bird be : more like a cat?) I decided to set up a pair of Yellowheads for breeding. : In the last four years, from one pair of Double Yellow head amazons and : one pair of Greenwing macaws, I have had 19 DYH and 25 greenwing babies. : Try that in a diminishing rainforest! : I have spent thousands on my birds.  I truly love them as pets and friends : first BUT I DO need to find homes for the babies.  I realize the most : people don’t want to ship a baby.  I certainly do not.  But a national : forum such as this help s everyone to see how small the supply is and what : the value of birds are.     : As far as the AFA and their quick ads are concerned, I have found them : ineffective. : The beauty of a newserver is that if you don’t want to read a FOR SALE ad, : you mark it read and skip it. : What POSSIBLE harm could ads do? Nobody is saying that without buyers breeders wouldn’t have trouble staying afloat. That goes without saying. The point is that USENET historically has not been a commercial enterprise. It is funded, by and large, by government grants as a scientific research asset, not as a money making enterprise. Lately, with private providers becoming more & more prevalent, and with these private providers offering more and more commercial services, it’s geting more and more difficult to tell where the NSFnet Internet and the Commercial Internet seperate, and if there should be a seperation. Ask yourself this, though. Do you want to pay your tax dollars to see tons of unwanted commercial posts? Kids, this doesn’t work like a mail order business, where a company invests a large sum of money to mail out flyers in the hope of a return on their investment. WE are the ones paying to receive these ads. Even if you are a college student with so called *free* Internet access, it’s our tax dollars that are funding your accounts in a lot of instances. I, for one, do not want to pay a red penny for someone elses advertising. Period. If you feel so strongly that breeders should place ads on the net, then I entreat you to request the creation of a rec.pets.birds.marketplace newsgroup, and go through the voting process like all other groups. Lest people think I’m a heartless ogre, I do not find fault with the grad student who has to part with a beloved friend or face eviction, and therefore is asking *one time* to sell their pet to a good home. What does bother me, as I’ve stated, is seeing:              ALL SHAPES, ALL SIZES, ALL PRICES, JUST FOR YOU!!!                 VISA, MasterCard, & American Express Accepted Sorry, but this is not where I want to see my tax dollars go, and seeing that each year brings a more gradual erosion of this factor on the Internet means that we have to fight even harder for it. I applaud your efforts at raising and breeding quality birds, but forgive me if I don’t want to pay for your advertising. Realize that every message that you write can cost the net in cumulative archival & storage space on X number of machines anywhere between several hundred and several thousand dollars. And guess who pays for it? Everyone! Also, remember that USENET is not just an American enterprise, it is worldwide, and different countries have different rules about what is allowed on the public net and what is not. People in Finland most likely do not have any interest in birds selling in Boulder, Colorado, nor do they wish to pay the costs required to see, at least to them, what constitutes a useless message. Again, I’m not just screaming without trying to offer a logical alternative, as I’ve stated above. There are commercial sections of the Internet, and rec.pets.birds is not one of them. There are a great many of us who wish it to remain so. If you want to see ads for birds, make a group where ads for birds will be welcome. USENET is a democracy, and if you go through the process, and find enough people who feel the same way you do, you can create a list to answer that need. I believe the group news.announce.newusers has frequent messages on the procedure for doing this. —  Michael Kelly Larsen         cisco Systems, Inc.     PHONE : (415) 688-4684  Development Test Engineer    Menlo Park, CA 94025    LAB   : (415) 688-4471              DREAMTANK: A virtual band for a virtual generation.      Keywords: African Grey Parrots, Amazon Cichlids, Electronic Music,                            ElfQuest, Snowboarding

Response:

> However, I do believe that anyone selling birds for profit should find > another venue for the ads.  Maybe we should have a rec.pets.birds.sale > forum ?

Phil, Hmm. I have yet to see anyone not making a profit from breeding and selling birds. Its not just an adventure, it’s a good job . Bird breeding is not an entirely philanthropic enterprise as many would like to believe. I am also finding the vast majority of parrot breeders to be small and "non-commerical", even if they are structured as buisnesses. There doesn’t seem to be any way around that "requirment" in terms of producing friendly birds. As for a specific "sale" forum, I don’t think there is enough interest to support a viable one. Newsgroups work best when they are large and heavily traveled in my experience. The ongoing drive to create new "subgroups" on the usenet I find often counterproductive. Jim J. E. Graham Biology and Chemistry Departments Indiana University Bloomington

Response:

Michael – right on.  This forum already gets several hundred posts a day.  It is hard to wade through all that is here right now.  Ifk there were commercial ads here our msgs would get lost in a flood of commercials, with headers nicely disguised to look look like legit. posts.  Next, the bird people would drift away, or possibly form another net, heavily controlled, and we’d be back where we started.   Why not just save time and trouble and keep rec.pets.birds the really charming place that it is. Cheers, Phil —

Response:

>offer their opinions on this or that topic just like anyone else.  In my >mind, the difference between the shopper vs the seller’s posts is that >the shopper’s is probably going to have questions related to care, >disposition, availability, which may be of interest to others (witness

all Is this to imply that breeders aren’t likely to have anything of interest to say?  Seems to me this group wouldn’t be harmed by more input from people with more "bird maturity" and greater breadth of experience.  I for one would like to see more breeder ads since this gives an indication of what species are most available and also what the going prices are.

Response:

>>offer their opinions on this or that topic just like anyone else.  In my >mind, the difference between the shopper vs the seller’s posts is that >the shopper’s is probably going to have questions related to care, >disposition, availability, which may be of interest to others (witness >all >Is this to imply that breeders aren’t likely to have anything of interest >to say?  Seems to me this group wouldn’t be harmed by more input from >people with more "bird maturity" and greater breadth of experience.  I >for one would like to see more breeder ads since this gives an indication >of what species are most available and also what the going prices are.

You didn’t read what I wrote, did you? I said, specifically, that breeders can choose to either lurk or post comments, just like everyone else. Breeders have and continue to do so (Hi Ellen!  Hi Chuck! Hi Linda!) and their comments are well appreciated.  The reason they are welcome is their posts are NOT advertisements of their stock for sale, they are simply their opinions, experiences, and advice. I see rec.pets.birds as a primarily educational forum for the dispersal of info on pet bird care.  If anyone can convince me breeders will agree to post their ads with a certain header format, so my kill file can weed those posts out, perhaps I wouldn’t mind as much.  However, there’s only one interactive place for discussing the daily concerns of pet bird care, with people who can understand the bird obsession  There’s a zillion ways to find a bird salesperson: magazine ads (listed by state, for your convenience), pet stores (check their stock or ask for a breeder recommendation), feed stores (check the "for sale" bulletin boards), avian vets (recommend local breeders), the newspaper (see the classifieds, or place one), and yes, a post to the newsgroup (with subsequent sale arrangements conducted via private e-mail).  I don’t want to wade through sales ads and sale transactions when I just want to read the bird owners’ posts and the replies that ensue (again, because the ads carry no useful info for someone that is not buying birds!). —

Response:

 Hello everyone, I am a new user, and i’ve been reading all of these NO breeders ads here replies, and i don’t understand what the problem is!! Look through all the posts, there is hardly anything for sale!! I would agree with Phil and others if the posts were swarming with for sale ads, but there not. This all started when one person asked why there was no for sale ads. Like that person, I am interested in what’s for sale. This is not even a discussion, it is a debate of who is right and who is wrong. To tell you the truth, I am scared to post anything because I wouldn’t want it to turn out like this post, a war a words!! —

Response:

I agre with Cathy.  If I want to FIND a bird I can ask a question and I will be delighted to hear from a breeder.  Otherwise I do not and will not wade through tons of commercial msgs and, no matter what you say, that is exactly what will happen the minute any easing of the "no commercial" rule happens. Human nature should confirm this to you.  The "me too" attitude would prevail and all the breeders who are licking their lips at the possibillity of commercializing this net would pile in unmercifully. Since you ask, and you continue to ask, if we want to see the net commercialized (which is against Internet policy, anyway) I vote a resounding NO.! Cheers, Phil : I, for one, would rather NOT wade through "for sale" ads.  Why? Because I : am not looking to buy a bird!!  I have no more $, space, but what really : makes me be out of the market is I simply have no more time to spend in : yet another bird (if I am to keep the locals spoiled to the level they have : become accustomed). : When I WAS out to buy a bird, I posted something along the lines of : "senegal wanted: Bay Area, CA, USA breeder suggestions?" and within a week : had about 5 people telling me stories about their Poicephalus parrots, : 1 breeder offering me a red-belly, and 2 people telling me I *had* to check : out a certain breeder in the area.  90% of this went on via private e-mail, : so the newsgroup was spared the clutter.  2 weeks later, my new birdie : was home. : The way I see it, *the breeders* are the ones to stand to make the $$ profit, : so they are the ones who should have to wade through the "bird wanted" : ads.  Once the breeder sees a request they may be able to fulfill, they : can contact the poster privately.  Otherwise, they can lurk, or they can : offer their opinions on this or that topic just like anyone else.  In my : mind, the difference between the shopper vs the seller’s posts is that : the shopper’s is probably going to have questions related to care, : disposition, availability, which may be of interest to others (witness all : the happy people who have ever posted "what bird should I get?" and gotten : swamped with advice).   : One of my concerns is that some breeders may feel free to post a daily : update on their "available merchandise".   : Why not start a "Birds for sale" mailing list?  That way only the interested : parties would have to deal with the posts.  Anyone interested in getting a : bird could subscribe, then unsubscribe upon purchasing a bird.  If the mailing : list ever grows enough, then perhaps rec.pets.birds-4-sale can be generated. : The existence of this mailing list could then be mentioned in the FAQ, and/or : a reminder could be posted automatically once a month. : — —

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: I am a new user, and i’ve been reading all of these NO breeders ads here : replies, and i don’t understand what the problem is!! Hi Stephanie, It sounds like you may be new to the Internet.  I’d suggest you get a copy of "The Internet Guide for New Users" by Daniel P. Dern (McGraw-Hill).  I’d bet you local library would have a copy.  On page 241 he details why commercial messages are not allowed on the Internet except in groups set aside for this purpose.  It really doesn’t matter if posters here want or don’t want to see ads from breeders.  Placing such ads violates the rules all internet sites have agreed to follow called "Usenet Netiquette and Rules" (whoever runs the machine that you have your account on agreed for you and others using your machine).  Besides violating Netiquette, it was (and may still be) a violation of the rules set down by federal government for use of the internet to post commercial messages (I think the feds have or are seriously revisting this).   While a business or commercial interest can’t post their wares for sale, you can recommend or not recommend products of a business (which would include a breeder) if and ONLY IF you have zero personal comercial interest in the firm you are talking about or a competing firm. (Again this is detailed in the book listed above and Dern is quoting from the rules set out by Software Tool & Die who run "The World" which is THE public access site for public-access Internet).   So you can recommend a breeder.  You can slam a breeder, as long as you are not a breeder. And (according to the rules of Netiquette), breeders can’t post birds for sale in rec.pets.birds.  (these aren’t my rules, just my understanding of the rules according to the sources cited above). I hope this helps. — Mike Holland                   |*****  /  *****|  Internet: 2015 South Park Place          |*   / / /_/   *|  HPDESK: Atlanta, Georgia 30339         |***    /    ***| Mike Holland/HPATC/03 Phone: (404) 850-2449          |***** /   *****|  Telnet: 1-850-2449

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->It is an illusion to think that the usenet has ever been some sort >of sterile higher ground divorced for the normal markets that >characterize our way of life. As the Internet has become more >mainstream, these apspects have increased, along with the byte >volume. The issue now is focused on "APPROPRIATE" information >which may include availablility and pricing (which many of us >are interested in), in contrast to the ad which you used as an >example. >I am as concerned as Mike about the commercialization of the >Internet, and am just as annoyed by the intrusion of >"make.money.fast" and the "Green-Card lawyer" affair. However, >the issue here is quite a bit different and should not be >confused with these cases of net abuse. >Those interested should "drink deeply" of the relevant aspects >from the various newsgroups related to usenet policy before >commenting here. Those who would prefer a >simpler "black and white" decision, or the return to an earlier >day in the evolution of the Internet may take heart in that >the  eventual establishment a of new "research only" based network >is entirely possible. The entire topic "rec.pets.birds" whould then >likely remain on this side of such a fence. >To return to the topic for which I started this thread, I am still >interested in how many readers would be interested >in seeing specific information on availability and prices of >the various birds being discussed. So far a handful of YES’s, >and a two *not*s. As the breeding of parrots appears to be only >manageable as a small personal enterprise in order to

m>produce the desired results, fear of spamming by "Woolwoth’s" >I think is a little excessive . >Jim

Dear Jim, I do not want ads here or anywhere on the net.  I have lots of reasons but here are three related specifically to rec.pets.birds 1.There are plenty of ads in BirdTalk, AFA Fast Ads, people can ask their vets and other bird owners for recommendations 2. As Cathy suggested, if someone wants to buy a bird, they can post an inquiry and let breeders respond to their email, thus keeping the dozens-hundreds of responses off the net 3. There is no way to keep scum breeders and brokers from advertising in BirdTalk and other places – I frequently recognize the names of really bad eggs (an appropriate expression, if ever there was one) in these ads.  How would we – all major bird fanatics who are highly protective of birds – be able to distinguish and bar the creeps. I like the way Ellen from Denver and Robert Moldenda do it – just give your business name in your signoff.  It’s informative but not intrusive. Ellen from Maryland

Response:

Stephanie – welcome to the birdnet!  It is really a very friendly place – don’t let some of the frayed tempers fool you.  You will read dozens of other posts on the board right now that amply demonstrate that. The point here is, that forums such as this ride the "coat tails" of big business and universities all over the world under the expressed constraint that they contain nothing commercial.  It costs someone a lot of money to fling these msgs. all over the world, and we all know that some day this free priveliage will disppear if the basic rules are forgotten. I hope you don’t mind a little "housekeeping" that has to go on from time to time in order to keep down the commercial hunger to troll the nets like this one for business.  It raises hackles beause we have seen it happen before, and we don’t want to see it happen to such a pleasant bunch of people. Tell me – do you own a bird now or are you just considering one?  If you do have one, what is it and how long have you had it?  I presently own just one old bird, a scarlet macaw named Rose who has been with me more than 25 years. Cheers, Phil :  Hello everyone, : I am a new user, and i’ve been reading all of these NO breeders ads here : replies, and i don’t understand what the problem is!! : Look through all the posts, there is hardly anything for sale!! : I would agree with Phil and others if the posts were swarming with : for sale ads, but there not. : This all started when one person asked why there was no for sale ads. : Like that person, I am interested in what’s for sale. : This is not even a discussion, it is a debate of who is right and who is : wrong. : To tell you the truth, I am scared to post anything because I wouldn’t : want it to turn out like this post, a war a words!! : — —

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I. Paul) writes:

There are ads all over the internet.  Haven’t you noticed the *.forsale groups?  Why not a rec.pets.birds.forsale group? Shawn

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. >I do not want ads here or anywhere on the net.  I have lots of reasons >but here are three related specifically to rec.pets.birds >1.There are plenty of ads in BirdTalk, AFA Fast Ads, people can ask their >vets and other bird owners for recommendations >2. As Cathy suggested, if someone wants to buy a bird, they can post an >inquiry and let breeders respond to their email, thus keeping the >dozens-hundreds of responses off the net >3. There is no way to keep scum breeders and brokers from advertising in >BirdTalk and other places – I frequently recognize the names of really >bad eggs (an appropriate expression, if ever there was one) in these >ads.  How would we – all major bird fanatics who are highly protective of >birds – be able to distinguish and bar the creeps.

. Hi Ellen P. I agree with your above statementes completely. I also think that some of the breeders on the net go very close to the edge, but on the whole are pretty sensitive to the "non-advertisement" policy. Regards, Dana

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I would disagree with Cathy that "info relevant to pet birds" does not include what is available and at what price range, and that "ads carry no useful information for someone that is not buying birds". It is clear that this is useful information for many readers who have an eye out for this kind of thing. Finding birds may be a one time thing as she suggests, or it may be an ongoing or even permanent situation for others. The other misconception is that we wil somehow be "flooded" by such posts. Remember the question is about "BREEDER" information, rather than commerical resellers or wholesalers. As was suggested, the proper newsreader and skill can easily allow the few articles that would appear to be passed over by those not interested. Sorting out what you are interested in from what you are not is an obviously essential aspect of reading news, and shouldn’t overwhelm any of us, nor be used as an reason to restrict the flow of information. The fact that there are other sources of this information also does not make it inappropriate here, in that the magazine ads and such refered to are merely static, unchanging blurbs that are almost always outdated. Breeder availablility is a very timely apsect, here today gone tomorrow, ideally suited to an electronic forum. The proposal of a mailing list is interesting, however I would question weather a suitable volume is available to support this or another newsgroup, even if someone were available to adminstrate such a list. Finally the suggestion that breeders tag there .sig with pointers is a great one regardless of the question at hand. Keep in mind the number of breeders you know, and the few that read this newsgroup, and the number of potential posts we are taking about. Thanks much, Jim J. Graham Biology and Chemsitry Departments

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>posts. Remember the question is about "BREEDER" information, rather >than commerical resellers or wholesalers. As was suggested, the proper

And how exactly do we KNOW that someone that puts the word "breeder" in their .sig file is not in reality a reseller or wholesaler or bird smuggler for that matter?     >newsreader and skill can easily allow the few articles that would >appear to be passed over by those not interested. Sorting out what >you are interested in from what you are not is an obviously essential >aspect of reading news, and shouldn’t overwhelm any of us, nor be used >as an reason to restrict the flow of information.

My kill file needs either an address, a subject or keywords or SOMETHING standard, in every "for sale" ad in order to remove posts; otherwise I am left with manually skipping over the post, which (in this newsgroup) I hardly want to do.  Who is going to make "the bad apples" stick with a recognizable format?  There are ways and ways to get around kill files. >The fact that there are other sources of this information also does not >make it inappropriate here, in that the magazine ads and such refered to >are merely static, unchanging blurbs that are almost always outdated.

A phone call to the breeder may help update the ad.  Mention that the ad is outdated and do a favor to others as well. >Breeder availablility is a very timely apsect, here today gone tomorrow,

Not if you contact the breeders and tell them to give you a buzz if a certain bird shows up.  The ones that dissapear overnight are usually selling smuggled birds >ideally suited to an electronic forum. The proposal of a mailing list >is interesting, however I would question weather a suitable volume >is available to support this or another newsgroup, even if someone >were available to adminstrate such a list. Finally the suggestion >that breeders tag there .sig with pointers is a great one regardless >of the question at hand. >Keep in mind the number of breeders you know, and the few that read >this newsgroup, and the number of potential posts we are taking about.

Yes, but how many people gain internet access daily, and how long until word spreads that "hey, you can put a free ad in this group anytime you want"??   Also, it doesn’t sound to me like anyone who posts her asking for "what kind of bird to get" remains bird-less for more than a couple months… which suggests the birds are getting found without blatant internet advertisement. I still think ads by breeders should be off limits, as per Internet etiquette.  The .signature info for breeders does loan some credibility to their opinions, and those who don’t want to advertise their hobby/ profession can keep the fact a secret .  For all I care, the breeders can all band together and form an international address list, and they can mail that off to people who ASK for that kind of info.  When I read a newsgroup on cooking, I don’t want to read ads for kitchen gadgets (although positive critiques by users are ok), I want info on techniques, recipes, suggestions… same applies whenever I read a newsgroup that doesn’t have .for.sale as part of its name. —

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Thanks Stephanie for the concern, no need to worry, I’m glad we have a strong discussion going. As you point out, the idea that "millions" of breeders are poised waiting to be allowed to post information is pure fantasy. In fact, nothing prevents them from doing so, contrary to Phil’s impression. There are no "rules", merely conventions, as anyone familiar with recent events involving the usenet would know. Because many readers consider this useful, relevant information (rec.pets.birds remember ?), then it is not even outside established conventions. More opinions always welcome,

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Filed under: Pet Bird Shop